'There are many more miles to go'

Mark Tully: All credit goes to the Liberation War museum, they have brought me here and I am spending hectic days, you see, I have talked a lot and..

And we want to listen more, especially about your experiences during the liberation war.

Well, in 1971, I was working for the BBC and mainly from London. I came to Bangladesh as the first party of journalists who were allowed to come. At that time only one or two journalists managed to survive for one night and then they were thrown out. The only reports available were the big reports by Anthony Mascarenhas who had come here as a Pakistani journalist and was expected to write the army story. But he had later shifted to Sunday Times and portrayed the actual happenings in the country.

What moved you most at that time?

I just tried to depict the truth and at that time BBC was critical on the brutal issues and thus the whole world became aware of what was then happening in East Pakistan. In fact, I witnessed widespread destruction by the army. Driving through the Aricha ghat, I saw all the burnt villages, one after another. Some people told me their stories, so basically I confirmed the story put out by Mascarenhas. It was correct, great brutalities had been committed. I saw the buildings that have been destroyed.

When did you come after the liberation war?

Quite soon, I interviewed Sheikh Sahib and he gave me a picture that I still have. You are not meant to accept presents when you work with the BBC but when Sheikh Sahib gave me a present I just couldn't be rude. I kept the picture and treasured it and I will never sell it.

When did you come last before this visit?

Last time since I left the BBC I haven't been here very often. Last time I came was when the Jamuna Bridge was opened. I was very keen on railways and there was controversy on whether it would be a road bridge or a railway bridge. So what I could do was exert a little influence. I spoke to World Bank and ADB and said you must put the railway on and I came to see the railway actually on.

Did you find any change this time?

Several change, absolute and obvious changes. Dhaka has grown hugely, many more building but it was quite a small place before. And in your field media has expanded tremendously and as a result of this I think, to some extent, what I may call the dead hand of the government has been removed a bit. With Bangladesh television and radio, which are very sarkari -- very government, oriented. So it's a very big change.

Does it seem positive to you?

What I would love to do which I haven't done though I was near the Jamuna Bridge countryside, I want to see what changes were there in the rural areas. Because, I think capital city is always very misleading and one of the funny thing, which I believe strongly is that there is something going wrong with the developments.

Can you please explain a bit further?

Every thing is getting concentrated in one place, wealth is not going down in the rural areas and as a crowded country in Bangladesh you cannot allow simply Dhaka or Chittagong to become bigger than the others. Wealth has to go down in other places as well. I would like to go and see how much progress or changes have been made there.

But a group of people boost about the GDP growth.

Measuring a country's development though GDP is quite the wrong way. An Indian economist said to me the other day, which I think is very true about the growth and market in particular which is the engine of growth people believe now -- the market is like a donkey, its fine if you ride it or lead it but if you just get led by it you would get kicked. If you just go for GDP blindly you are following the country and would get kicked. If you still have such a low growth in human development index then what is the meaning of all this growth?

Then you are going to the countryside this time to see the changes?

No, not this time, I am now busy with writing a book and the publisher is now at my back. I wrote many books on India, but this time it would be something very important for Bangladesh as well.

What will the book be about?

This book in a way is about my experiences in the sub-continent -- its tradition or pluralism. This part of the world is the historic home of every great work and religion. In case of Christianity, which is my religion, we believe Saint Thomas came here for preaching. Muslims, even during the time of the Prophet of Islam, believed that saints came here. There have been Hindu rulers, Muslim rulers, British rulers but this lovely multi-religious nature has survived and that's what I want to write about in this book.

Is it concentrating on the sub-continent only or will have on impact on the West?

In the West, you will see controversies even now on whether a Muslim women can wear a headscarf or not. It is quite clear in the west that they do not understand religious pluralism. Pluralism in this part of the world may hopefully help them understand this.

And Bangladesh is already a haven of pluralism?

Absolutely, this pluralism is very mush part of your Bengali culture as well and one of the great news for the Liberation War Museum is that tremendous emphasis is put on in this pluralistic tradition of Bengal -- of both sides of Bengal. I believe one religion should not be dominating rather giving space to every one.

How does the present day of politics differ from the politics just after the liberation war.

Actually there are big changes in politics. When I first came to Bangladesh, Awami League was the all powerful and unchallenged, we knew Awami League will win and never bothered to report on election. Now there is of course a much more balanced electoral scene. I think one big dominant party is not good for democracy.

What should be the gateway now for Bangladesh regarding democracy?

The key is that you should have a free and fair election, and the party which is defeated should accept defeat, and I am sure it will happen this time in Bangladesh.

You have been in Delhi for a pretty long time, what do you think of the bilateral relation between the two countries?

Unfortunately, the whole subcontinent is still living with the mentality of partition with every country looking for certain element of hostility, certain element of rivalry at each other. And I think this is tragic when the rest of the world is moving towards regionalism and you have a body that is impotent and powerless like SAARC.

What should be the means to dissolve the crisis?

Both countries should realize that, like you live with neighbors or other members of your family, no man is ever an island by himself and no nation is an island by itself. What happens in Bangladesh affects India and vice versa.

But Bangladesh experienced water crisis due to Farakka.

On the Indian side, I believe, they have at last realized that Farakka was ill-advised.

And there is tremendous trade gap.

Yes, you have a very adverse balance trade with India but India is your historical partner. India should say to Bangladesh that you can have a duty free access.

And what if that damages the economy?

It would not damage the Indian economy; it would be hugely beneficial for India and its politics in this country. All the business interest will lay on good relation with India and the whole attempt to build politics on an anti-Indian front would actually collapse.

Should it be done unilaterally by India?

Bangladesh too should take responsibility. But, what India should remember is that India is a large country with a huge economy. And naturally due to the heavy trade imbalance, Bangladesh fears that Indian goods can swamp it.

You mean the transit will facilitate our economy?

Think of Asian Highway, what Bangladesh did was all after the mutual suspicion. Economic development would come with that highway and think of both these things-trade and highway, and transit; these are examples of this attitude of mutual suspicion and submerged hostility.

Can you define what would be an ideal bilateral relation?

Look, we have four or five flights from Dhaka to Delhi; I would love to have that sort of transport facility for rails or roads I would love to catch a train and go to Delhi. With proper transportation, water system and a joint campaign, eradicating diseases can be done on regional basis.

What is your message for Bangladesh?

I don't think I am the right person to give a message. I would just say that this museum has asked me to come here and the whole point of it is the maintenance of the sprit of the Liberation War. I think Bangladesh must continue to remember that the independence has just been achieved and there are many more miles to go. I would hope, the spirit of liberation will inspire Bangladesh and the nation will go on with its spirit until they do construct what all Bangladeshis have in their dreams -- a "Sonar Bangla" -- the golden Bangladesh.